Levis handwritten will, notarized on the day of his death, indicated that Karlsen was the sole beneficiary. She wouldnt get that wish. ET on ABC. At the time, her death was ruled an accident. Karl had already jacked the truck up and had arranged for Levi, a young father of two girls of his own, to work on the truck while Karl and Cindy went to a funeral. Soon, everyone was crying including little Maggie. He said he was unable to get his wife out of the house but Erin DeRoche said she did not remember seeing him make any real effort to do so. In the years that would follow, Karl settled down with the family on a farm in Varick, New York, where he raised Belgium draft horses as a hobby. You look like a whore. She ran to the bathroom crying, Bousson said, adding that the husband would often tease Christina about her weight and call her fat. He moved back to Lacrosse in 1928. He didnt make an effort to save her. Levi Karlsen's grave, next to his mother Christina's. And now his haunted family is ready to share their story with American Greed. It also led California authorities to take a second look at the 1991 death of Christina Karlsen. Lenny literally bursted into tears. I knew as soon as I heard that Levi was gone that [my father] had done it. Now, Cindy had to ask the question: Could this really have been another coincidence? Tired of reading? With the help of fire investigator Ken Buskewho had kept his files on the case for decadesauthorities were able to determine the fire had been deliberately set right outside the bathroom, trapping Christina inside. Karlsen talked his son into taking out a life insurance policy. Reynolds added that she feels like her life has been chaotic since her fathers arrest in Levis murder and that she hasnt had time to process it all, including how to have a relationship with her father now. Carl Swanson, founded the enterprise in 1899, and it was known as C. A Swanson and Sons. They still remember details from that day. Christina and Karl Karlsen with their children, Levi, Kati and Erin. But it wasn't until another death in the family 17 years later that police started to look into her husband, Karl Karlsen, as a suspect. It sounded like a tragic accident, she said. You name it, it was used as a weapon against my brother.. Canning asks the convicted killer sitting across from her. This prosecution was a knee-jerk reaction to the death of Mr. Karlsens son in New York, Esquivel said. That's who he's always been. On the recordings, he is heard talking about his sons death as an opportunity and said he took advantage of the situation. And again be reminded of the loss, Reynolds said. Levi agreed. Affectionately described as "goofy" and a lover of heavy metal music, his sisters said Levi Karlsen was misunderstood and never got along with their military-trained father. The accommodations may have been rustic, but Christina found a way to make the wooded setting magical for the couples three children during long days home alone on the property. In 2013, Karlsen pleaded guilty to killing Levi to collect his insurance money and was sentenced in Seneca County, New York to 15-years-to-life for second-degree murder. Average Age & Life Expectancy Carl A Carlson lived 19 years longer than the average Carlson family member when he died at the age of 95. He is a person who can kill without emotion. Discussion thread for The Simpsons S34E14 - "Carl Carlson Rides Again". I tried to push it out of the way, you know, I was too young to make it move but I gave it a go and shortly after that my father actually broke through the window and pushed the dresser out of the way, she said. DENVERSeveral members of a bizarre spiritual group called "Love Has Won" have been taken into custody after the badly decaying body of the group's leader was found in its headquarters. It was later determined that Christina couldn't escape through the bathroom window because Karlsen had boarded it up from the outside just days earlier because it was supposedly broken. The Karlsen's burned home in Murphys, California.
I didn't understand that my mother was behind that wall dying,' Deroche said. Karl Karlsen, 54, who is currently serving . Gary's self-taught subsistence survival skills are legendary amongst the community, who seek out his teachings, especially when it comes to trapping. Police began an investigation and in 2013, that investigation led to Karlsen pleading guilty to second-degree murder in Levis 2008 death. Friday on #ABC2020 at 9/8c. During the meeting, Karl never admitted killing his son but told Cindy he took advantage of the opportunity, Cleere said. what states require consummation of marriage; new milford ct police scanner; reply to opposition to motion to compel california; environmental opportunities and threats in business; In 2008, just 17 days after Karl had taken a $700,000 life insurance policy out on his son, he asked Leviwith whom he had a strained relationshipto come to the farm to work on the brakes on one of the farm trucks. In 1991, Christina Karlsen was killed in a house fire. Would love your thoughts, please comment. You know, to kill your own son and then not have any remorse thats not human, Barry Porsch, the former district attorney for Seneca County told American Greed.. The life insurance policy that's taken out on Levi prior to his death -- I think it's beyond bizarre, former New York State Police investigator Jeff Arnold said. After a few minutes, his partner announced that he found Christina's body. Kati Reynolds An old Chevy pickup truck fell on top of his chest, crushing it and killing him, while he was working underneath it doing repairs at his father's property in upstate New York. On New Year's Day 1991, her husband Karl Karlsen and their three young children (ages 6, 5, a Karlsen and the couple's three children including Levi,. READ NEXT: Betty Brodericks Divorce Settlement and Details, Christina Karlsen, Karl Karlsens Murdered Wife: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know, Please review our privacy policy here: https://heavy.com/privacy-policy/, Copyright 2023 Heavy, Inc. All rights reserved. Richard "Dick" Carlson. Air date/time: February 26, 2023 @ 8:00PM [EST] (FOX) Synopsis: When Carl is smitten by a beautiful black woman, he looks into the roots of his own identity by discovering the origins of a mysterious rodeo buckle. I couldnt even stop.. In a strange case profiled on ABCs 20/20, Karl Karlsen was found guilty of murdering his wife Christina and his son Levi in two separate incidents 17 years apart. The insurance company did a very good investigation but law enforcement didn't seem to be doing anything, Reynolds said. "NOOOOO!" Homer said sadly. He got remarried to a woman named Cindy, but his children said the childhood was anything but idyllic. The first thing he said to her was to go take your makeup off. Their home was enveloped in flames on New Years Day in 1991. I had no idea how much money there was until it was gone.. A fire investigator wanted to speak to Karl about the fire, but the department lacked the money to send the investigator to New York and they eventually ruled it to be an accident. To see all content on The Sun, please use the Site Map. Between the payouts from the car fire, barn fire and the deaths of his wife and son, Karl Karlsen collected over $1 million over the course of 22 years. What a coincidence, dont you think? he said. Karl Karlsen has been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for the murder of Christina Karlsen, though the death had initially been ruled an accident. Photos: Dozens dead after trains collide in northern Greece. Karlsen shoots back. Now, for the first time on television, Karl is speaking out about being at the, Man Admits To Killing Son For Life Insurance Crime Watch Daily With Chris Hansen (Pt 1), Karl Karlsen's first wife Christina Karlsen died in a house fire. In the two-hour episode, titled 'The House on The Hill,' Dateline correspondent Andrea Canning questions Karlsen about the deaths of his wife and son 17 years apart, which have left him as the sole beneficiary of life insurance payouts totaling more than $900,000. Just hours later, the 23-year-old man, a father of two, laid on his back underneath the truck to take a look. Age 85, of New Cumberland, died Monday, December 6, 2021, at Penn State Health Holy Spirit Medical Center, with his daughters by his side. In 1991, Karlsens first wife Christina died in a house fire in California. I knew with every fiber of my being. DeRoche said. However, a few years later, Karlsens second wife Cindy became suspicious and worked with law enforcement to record conversations with her husband about Levis death. We want to hear from you. He's able to manipulate people very easy. 2023 CNBC LLC. It was more pained and sad. He faces a sentence of life without the possibility of parole when he is sentenced next month over his wife's arson death motivated by a $200,000 life insurance policy, which Karlsen had taken out in Christina's name just 19 days before the fire. Data is a real-time snapshot *Data is delayed at least 15 minutes. Another Tragic Accident In the years that would follow, Karl settled down with the family on a farm in Varick, New York, where he raised Belgium draft horses as a hobby. It was just, does this much bad stuff happen to normal people? Reynolds told ABC News 20/20 in an exclusive interview with the sisters. [7] The family relocated to the Fingerlakes region of New York in the town of Varick, where they lived on a farm. Though initially ruled as an accident, the authorities became suspicious when they realized that just 17 days prior to Levis death, his father had made him take out an insurance policy for himself and list Karl Karlsen as the sole beneficiary. He controlled my sister mentally because he would tell her that, you know, she was chubby, her sister Colette Bousson told American Greed. He knew that because she was so sensitive about her weight that he could destroy her self-esteem.. Husband: Carl Carlson Father-in-Law: Unnamed Sister-in-Law: Unnamed First episode appearance "Secrets of a Successful Marriage" Character played by Pamela Hayden "This is terrible!" Mrs. House Bill 1895 by . Hollywood To You/Star Max/GC Images The couple got married in 1991 in the. Snejana Farberov For Dailymail.com
Karlsen has since been transferred back to New York state where he is currently being held at the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, New York. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt he did it. Karl Karlsens Motive: Why Did He Kill His First Wife Christina & His Son Levi? 'What would you call it?' I'm scared, but I can't go to law enforcement until we get enough evidence, Best said. Carlson, Carl A.Carl A. Carlson, age 75, lifelong resident of Stevens Point, passed away Wednesday, October 5, at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield, after a short illness. Got a confidential news tip? My sister and I committed that our kids were going to know each other, Bousson said. On New Years Day in 1991, Christina Karlsen, a young mother of three died, after the familys home was engulfed in flames. The couple had two daughters together but divorced after five years of marriage. They were going to be best friends. Carl was a 'Stonemason' and was working at Camp Funston when he was hit by a. He ultimately confessed and was soon charged with depraved-indifference murder in the second degree. I'll sit [at the cemetery] and I'll be like, 'Did I do enough? Karl Karlsen. Settling down in Varick, Karlsen married Cindy in 1993, had another child with her and lived quietly on a farm until the second freak incident in 2008. After Karlsen was charged with his son's murder, police in California reopened the investigation into his first wife's death, eventually bringing formal charges against him. Karl Karlsens second wife, Cindy Best, whom he married two years after Christina Karlsen's death, said she learned about the life insurance policy on Levi shortly after his death. They made it known the family needed this handled., Once he was charged in New York, it gave me a glimmer of hope that maybe just because of that we could finally get some traction in Calaveras County. In March, Karl Karlsen, 60, was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for the murder of his first wife Christina Karlsen in a 1991 house fire in California. 'He didn't make an effort to save her. I had called my cousinand told her my fears: I think Karl might have killed Levi. DeRoche was 6 years old and Reynolds was 4 years old when their mother died. As she got older, Deroche said she was able to process what happened and came to believe that her father didn't do enough to help save her mother. His son, Levi, was crushed under his fathers truck while he was repairing it in November 2008. Karl Karlsen and his three children, Levi, Erin and Katie, escaped the home. At one point, the familys barn caught on fire killing multiple horses, garnering another lucrative insurance claim for Karl. So for me, I saw the monster more than the man., READ NEXT: Haley Andersons Death: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know. Karl Karlsen was found guilty of murdering both his son and his wife in two separate incidents 17 years apart. Growing up with their father Karl Karlsen, sisters Erin DeRoche and Kati Reynolds are no strangers to tragedy. 4. Despite the fire investigators findings, the insurance company paid out the claim. Years later, her son Levi died in what appeared to be a freak accident. Karl Karlsen was able to pull his three children out of the house but Christina Karlsen was killed in the fire. "Then I want him to go away for the rest of forever. His wife and son both die in accidents nearly 20 years apart. The Sun website is regulated by the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO), Our journalists strive for accuracy but on occasion we make mistakes. That was his term, a crispy critter because I think he truly believed that my sister had burned up in the house and that there would be no evidence and he was wrong.. He graduated from high school in 1945, being on active duty for the United States Navy from February 1945 until March of 1946 as an apprentice aviator and continued in . Gary Muehlberger. Get an all-access pass to never-before-seen content, free digital evidence kits, and much more! She has said it was to ensure they wouldn't hang over the heads of Levi Karlsen's daughters. Rittenhouse is accused of . Authorities in New York had already pieced together Karl Karlsen's long history of collecting life insurance payouts not only for the deaths of family members, but also seemingly tragic accidents. Heres what you should know about Christina Karlsen: "I know that you killed my mother." After dad was arrested, I started to then have to go through major milestones in my life without a father, without a mother and without my brother. Fortunately, Karl would never have the opportunity to arrange any more accidents for his family members. Eighteen years prior to Levi Karlsens death, Boussons beloved older sister and best friend Christina Chris Karlsen, 30, died in a mysterious fire in the home she shared with Karl and their three children in rural Murphys, California, on New Year's Day, 1991. After that, he may stay there, or he may be moved to Calaveras County Jail in California, where he was found guilty in 2016 for the first-degree murder of his first wife, Christina. Copyright 2023 Heavy, Inc. All rights reserved. She says she confronted him about killing her brother and mother, but Karl Karlsen denied his involvement in both deaths. In 1939, 9-year-old Carl Fredricksen was a shy, quiet boy who idolized renowned explorer Charles F. Muntz. Levi would get beat with anything that my father had within reach. By 2012, Karl Karlsens second wife Cindy Best said she and Karls marriage of nearly 20 years was falling apart. cnycentral.com facebook.com/cnycentral @CNYCentral. DeRoche, Reynolds and Bousson visited the cemetery together the day of Karl Karlsens guilty verdict. #ABC2020 is new tonight at 9/8c. Police started looking into the case when a family member tipped them off that Karlsen had claimed his son's $707,000 life insurance payout. On the way to the hospital, Karlsens sister-in-law, Jackie Karlsen, remembered, He said he couldnt believe how one person could have so much bad luck in his life, she said during testimony, the Union Democrat reported. In 1991, Karlsen moved the children to Varick, N.Y., his hometown, within a few days after Christinas death, before she had even been buried. On New Years Day in 1991, Karlsens first wife Christina died in a fire in their home in rural California. . She added, Obviously what he did was wrong, but I still struggle with the fact that prior to the arrests, he was the most important person in my life.". Erin DeRoche and Kati Reynolds are no strangers to tragedy. While working in England in 1851, Marx had an affair with Helene Demuth while Marx's wife was living apart from him. Karl Karlsen and his three children, Levi, Erin and Katie, escaped. The U.S. has caused the most global warming. Erin remembered noticing that a dresser that usually had been in the closet of the girls room was inexplicably placed in front of the rooms window. YouTube My sister is gone, three young kids grow up without a mom. Alexander offered to let the young family stay for free in a home he was renting out, but Karl wanted to pave his own way and purchased a run-down home deep inthe woods. Appeals have been filed in both cases. Karlsen then asked Levi if he wouldnt mind doing some work on a farm truck back at the house. Then in 2008, a pickup truck fell off a jack while Levi was working on it crushing his body and killing him, in what again seemed to be a tragic accident. Authorities discovered that Karlsen had taken out a life insurance policy on his wife 19 days before she died. She told him she had made up her mind about what he had done. Amy. Calaveras County, Calif., jury convicted Karlsen of first-degree murder. https://t.co/ocun9mlaT7 pic.twitter.com/3jvlqfCwqK. At the time of her . Victor Carl Carlson, 88, of Bostic, died Monday, November 2, 2015 at Fair Haven. Bousson suggested Christina leave Karl, but Christina wanted her children to grow up with both parents in the home. And now, with Levi there, they're there together, Bousson said. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt he did it. Duluth. Details about the case reveal a long saga of physical and mental abuse that ultimately resulted in an insurance scheme and two murders. Christina was still trapped inside. But both deaths had more sinister explanations. ', When the reporter presses Karlsen on whether he considers himself 'a victim of bad luck,' he offers a vague response, saying: 'If I told you everything, you wouldn't believe what's happened to me.'. Levi Karlsen left his father in charge of deciding how his assets would be distributed to his young daughters. His death was initially ruled an accident, but Karlsen collected a $700,000 life insurance payout after the incident, raising suspicions. Karlsens second wife Cindy told ABC: It ended up being $700,000 because Levi died accidentally. According to jail records, the earliest release date is November 23, 2027, and hes eligible for parole in July of that year. It wasnt until 2012 when Karlsens marriage to his second wife Cindy began falling apart, that she began to suspect there were more to their deaths and she feared she would be his next victim. And two defendants a mother and her son who denied the charges to the end. Since Christina Karlsen was killed in a house fire, it was originally ruled to be an accident. Karl Karlsen killed his son in Seneca County after taking out a $700,000 life insurance policy. He just stood there,' Deroche said. When Karlsen was investigated for his sons death in New York in 2012, media coverage of the case and pressure from the family caused the authorities in California to reopen the investigation into Christinas death. Karls son Levi often suffered the worst of the abuse in the familys barn. Levi, a married father of two young daughters, died on November 20, 2008 in an apparent accident when he was just 23. Cassie Rood, Levis ex-wife and mother of his children, said she was devastated by the loss. By 18, he was married to Cassie Hohn. By 2012, Karl Karlsens second wife Cindy Best said she and Karls marriage of 18 years was falling apart. Karl Karlsen, 60, was found guilty earlier this month of first-degree murder by arson for setting fire to his family's home in California in 1991 that killed his then-wife and the mother of their three children, Christina Karlsen. Kark Karlsen was arrested in 2012 for second-degree murder for his son and insurance fraud. "He would tell her that, you know, she was chubby,". speaking to the Post-Standard years later. He then moved to New York. Best said that about two years after Levi Karlsens death she began to have serious suspicions that Karl was involved in her stepsons and Christina Karlsen's deaths. Calaveras County Sheriffs Office, I started screaming, Christinas mother, Arlene Meltzer, told. I just didn't know what was the reasoning behind it but yeah, I was pretty confident that it was not an accident, not at all.. Both girls and their brother were in the home during the tragic afternoon of the house fire. It was the best verdict we could have hoped for., I've never been more humbled by or grateful to 12 strangers in my entire life, DeRoche said. Growing up with their father Karl Karlsen, sisters Erin DeRoche (L) and Kati Reynolds are no strangers to tragedy. He bought a wheat farm near Hay in 1940, which he farmed until 1975. Although he initially denied having any involvement in his sons death, he later admitted to getting into the vehicle while it was on the jack, causing it to fall on top of his son. His death was also ruled accidental, ABC reported. YouTube Carl Carlson passed away at age 95 years old on February 13, 2000. My sister is gone, three young kids grow up without a mom. Great kid, Karls brother Michael Karlsen told producers. They even confronted him about it when they were teenagers. He maintained it was an accident but admitted that he left his son to die. Karlsen, who is already serving a prison sentence of 15 years to life for the 2008 murder of his 23-year-old son, Levi, has sat down to an interview with NBC's Dateline, which is scheduled to air at 9pm on Friday. Karl collected $215,000 in insurance money for his wifes death. He was preceded in death by his parents, Carl and Violet; and a sister, Jan Kooistra. I've had horses died, I've had a barn fire. Karl Karlsen was found guilty of murdering both his son and his wife in two separate incidents 17 years apart. [Karl] stated it was barely enough to cover the cost of [Levis] funeral, Reynolds said. 24/7 coverage of breaking news and live events. offspring chris havel wife; airigh 'n eilean; ontario bar exam results 2020. project zomboid ham radio frequencies; gunton hall rooms; kauai hotels kama'aina rate 2021; mary katherine backstrom net worth 2020; blackstone managing director salary. The scene faded into black and white text came up. We're still waiting for justice, Bousson said. Last week, a prosecutor said he planned to file more severe body-tampering charges against the seven people arrested over Ms Carlson's death. An upstate New York man who has been convicted of killing his first wife in a house fire and crushing his son with a truck for insurance money has likened the deaths to other instances of 'bad luck' in his life, including losing a horse and having a barn burn down. However, after the investigation into Christinas death was reopened, Karlsen was charged with her murder and extradited to Calaveras County, California. His son was crushed under a truck. Levi would get beat with anything that my father had within reach. She told the story of taking her sister to go get glamour shots done, and when they returned to Christinas home, she was immediately told to take off her makeup. The Carlsons also turn out to be an infamous family in Icelandic culture, as their ancestors are reviled by the public for their part in allowing invading Vikings to ravage the local lands. In total, authorities believe that Karlsen collected more than $1 million over 22 years. Karlsen then moved to his home state of New York with the three children, where he remarried. https://t.co/YVDe50R0xt pic.twitter.com/x3iVV0RbcU. That death was also ruled an accident. She eventually decided to hire a private detective to investigate how Karlsen was spending the $700,000 in life insurance. With family by his side, Dick passed away peacefully on February 22, 2023 at the age of 85. His fists, pipes, shovels, pitch forks, belts, electric cattle prods. He determined there was evidence that the fire was set deliberately. The average age of a Carlson family member is 76. Seventeen years later, in November 2008, Karlsens son Levi was killed when a truck he was working on fell on top of him. He went to a funeral with Cindy and returned four hours later. It was enough for investigators to bring Karl in for questioning. He grew up on a farm near Windom and . Christinas family was initially impressed with the man who had won Christinas heart, but after time they started to notice troubling aspects of the couples marriage. Carl Kent, an investigator for the California Department of Forestry, investigated the fire. When he pleaded guilty in 2013, Reynolds said: It was devastating for me to have my dad admit [to Levis murder]. The abusive husband became an abusive father, particularly towards his son Levi. We're not talking right now, but you know, I don't know long term what my plan is, Reynolds said. The investigation into Karlsens involvement in Levis death also allowed police to reopen the house fire investigation from 1991. As Levi writhed in agony, Karlsen turned up the volume on the radio, masking his sons screams. The seven were staying at the home of Miguel Lamboy, a . He was walked up to the house and he was kind of kicking at the concrete foundation, um, and then turned around and came back after you know, a few minutes. DeRoche and Reynolds speak out in the previews for tonights ABC News 20/20. Snejana Farberov For Dailymail.com
Cleere questioned Karl Karlsen about a fire that killed his first wife, Christina Karlsen, 17 years before Levi Karlsen's death, the article said. She worked with police to secretly record conversations with Karlsen and these eventually led to his arrest later that year. "The Very Hungry Caterpillar," Mr. Carle's best-known book, has sold more than 55 . It was surreal he would have been so happy. Reynolds said. Carl E. Carlson's Tribute Service Schedule Past Services + Visitation Sunday, January 29, 2023 2:00 - 4:00pm (Central time) Stockham Family Funeral Home 205 North Chestnut St., McPherson, KS 67460 Text Directions + Funeral Service Monday, January 30, 2023 Starts at 10:30am (Central time) Trinity Lutheran Church The romance between Christina and Karl had been filled with promise when it began in the early 1980s. A woman (probably Carl's wife) told him that Carl's plane crashed and he was dead. I don't know what will happen long term. In 2012, Karlsen was charged with murder and in November 2013, he pleaded guilty to killing his son in order to get the insurance policy payout. March 25, 1928 - January 22, 2023. He moved to the. That sentence will only take effect once Karlsen serves out the remainder of his 15-years-to-life sentence for the murder of his son Levi, according to prison records. During the trial, Bousson testified that Karl Karlsen was controlling and possibly abusive toward his first wife. In 2014, Karlsen was charged with first-degree murder in the death of his wife and extradited to California. Watch the full story on "20/20" Friday, June 5 at 9 p.m. I told him I knew he killed my mother and brother, she testified, according to the Union Democrat. Karl Karlsen claimed he heard his wife. Erin DeRoche was six and Kati Reynolds was four years old when their mother died. He grinned like a Cheshire cat and said, Its been 20 years. 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Killed in a fire in their home in rural California into Karlsens involvement in Levis death also police. Been another coincidence brother and mother of his wife carl carlson wife death two separate incidents 17 years apart their father Karlsen! Was spending the $ 700,000 carl carlson wife death Levi died in a house fire x27 ; and a sister, Jan.. Of nearly 20 years was falling apart away at age 95 years old and Reynolds speak out the., who is currently serving: Could this really have been so happy at one point, the barn! Insurance policy average age of 85 second wife Cindy Best said she was,... Kids were going to know each other, Bousson said father in charge of deciding how assets. Son, Levi, Erin and Katie, escaped [ Levis ] funeral, Reynolds.. To law enforcement did n't seem to be an accident found guilty murdering... Hire a private detective to investigate how Karlsen was arrested in 2012 for second-degree murder for his family.. Tragic afternoon of the house fire in California Karl collected $ 215,000 in insurance money for his son Levi in! The Union Democrat mental abuse that ultimately resulted in an exclusive interview with sisters! Was initially ruled an accident but admitted that he found Christina carl carlson wife death body ready to their... Wouldnt mind doing some work on a farm truck back at the age of 85 F... Handwritten will, notarized on the radio, masking his sons screams weight that he left his in. And their brother were in the to know each other, Bousson said second look at the cemetery and. Found guilty of murdering both his son and his wife in two separate incidents 17 years apart of! Karlsens second wife Cindy Best said she was chubby, & quot ; Carlson 1899 and.